I was featured on a wine podcast...
Simon Jacob hosted me on his 'The Kosher Terroir' program on the 5th of March 2025.
Honored to be featured on S. Simon Jacob’s ‘Kosher Terroir’ podcast! We had a really enjoyable conversation—hopefully, others will find it an amiable and diverting way to pass 90 minutes (though its probably better at 1.5 speed). Also available through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, RSS Feed, BuzzSprout, and a bunch of other podcast platforms/apps.
Here is the official link: https://www.thekosherterroir.com/2210843/episodes/16725425-a-wine-conversation-with-joshua-e-london
Or listen to it here:
Simon Jacob’s website also offers a Transcript version. It is an AI-generated transcript, so not altogether accurate. I’ve taken the liberty of lightly cleaning that up, lightly elucidating unexplained words and phrases, and then slightly improving the the transcript to remove some of the the ums and ahs and mind-searching repetitions. Think of this as a sort of lazy yet still critical edition — just in case anyone prefers to read the conversation instead of listening to it.
Rough Transcript of “The Kosher Terroir podcast - A Wine Conversation with Joshua E. London” from 5th March 2025.
Simon Jacob: 0:09
Welcome to The Kosher Terroir. I'm Simon Jacob, your host for this episode from Jerusalem. Before we get started, I ask that, wherever you are, please take a moment and pray for the safety of our soldiers and the safe return of all of our hostages.
Welcome to the Kosher Terroir, the podcast that uncorks the world of kosher wine, one bottle, one story at a time. Today, we're joined by Joshua London, a seasoned wine and spirits writer with a deep knowledge of the global kosher wine scene.
Originally from California, Joshua has written extensively on wines, spirits, and cocktails for top publications, offering expert insight into what makes a great kosher vintage.
In this episode, we explore the evolution of the kosher wine market, emerging trends and what sets certain wines apart. If you love discovering new wines, expanding your palate and diving deep into the craftsmanship behind every bottle, you're in the right place. So pour yourself a glass, settle in, and let's explore the kosher terroir.
Welcome to The Kosher Terroir, Josh. It's a real pleasure.
Joshua London: 1:23
The pleasure is all mine. Thank you.
Simon Jacob: 1:25
Okay, so tell me a little bit about how you got into wine and what you're doing now, but let's start from the beginning. How did you get into this?
Joshua London: 1:38
Oh gosh, so it feels like many lifetimes ago now, but… So, I'm originally from Northern California. From Sacramento.
Simon Jacob: 1:51
I didn't know that.
Joshua London: 1:52
Oh yeah, small frum community there [“frum” or פֿרום in Yiddish, from the German fromm, meaning “pious” or “devout”, a colloquial Jewish phrase to denote an Orthodox Jewish person, institution or community; sometimes also used to reference a business owned by an Orthodox Jewish person].
Simon Jacob: 1:59
Do you know Steve Fishbein?
Joshua London: 2:00
Yeah, when we first met we did a little bit of this Jewish geography. It was right at the start of the Rothschild dinner thing in New York. [A reference to a lavish event hosted by the Royal Wine Corp—the largest US producer, importer, and distributor of kosher wines and spirits—to celebrate their thirty-year collaboration (ongoing) producing kosher wines with Edmond de Rothschild Heritage.]
S Simon Jacob: 2:05
Right in New York.
Joshua London: 2:08
So, Steve, in fact, even many more moons ago, the Fishbeins... So my father, Olevashalom [עליו־השלום a Yiddish expression, from the Hebrew עליו השלום (aláv hashalóm) 'lit. “(may) the peace (be) upon him,” aka “may he rest in peace”], who was the Cházn [or chazán (חזן), the cantor, or the person who leads the congregation in prayer in a Jewish synagogue] — it was a small pond, he was a big fish. He [my father] was one of the folks, along with the Rav [Rabbi of the community], who helped mekarev [מקרב to bring someone closer to their Judaism] Steve and Yvette. Brought them more into the fold.
Simon Jacob: 2:40
Wow, very, very small world. All right, so tell me a little bit about your background. Where did you start? How did you get into wine?
Joshua London: 2:49
OK, so, as I said, I'm originally from Sacramento and there were some family friends who were wine lovers and who decided to roll the dice and start commercially making some kosher wine.
It was, I can't recall off the top of my head now, I think it was Sonoma grapes, but they were making it in Davis, California.
Simon Jacob: 3:17
As in UCDavis [University of California, Davis]?
Joshua London: 3:18
Yeah. In fact that's where I did my undergrad, and all of the Israeli wine folk who would come through, if any were Datiim [דתיּים; Hebrew colloquial terminology for a religious Jews], they usually came to the Sacramento community. That is how I met Shiki Rauchberger [Shlomo (Shiki) Rauchberger, a well-known Israeli winemaker; since 2002, he has been the chief winemaker at the Teperberg Winery, and before that, he was with the Carmel winery]. I've known the Rauschberger family a long time…From his time there when he was doing the research on the mevushal process and all that [מְבֻשָּׁל; Hebrew for cooked or boiled, a reference to the application of thermal processing of wine to adhere to one of the elective options for kosher wine production — a long story for another time]. At any rate, so, friends of the family—you probably know Yitzi Applebaum?
Simon Jacob: 3:48
Sure.
Joshua London: 3:49
So Yitzi and a few partners did a kosher wine. It's now a pretty mediocre, unremarkable [kosher] Australian wine brand, Teal Lake, ok, but when Teal Lake first began it was a California wine, made in Davis. So, it was Yitzi Applebaum — Yitzi and Hilda Applebaum. And Doctors Rivkah Iseroff and Art Huntley—they’re married. And there was one other partner who was not Jewish, whose name escapes me at this moment.
Back then—and this is before the kosher wine industry was as big, and before the kashrus industry was as big, and as professionalized as it is now. Back then they would basically grab from among the willing of the handful of shomrei Shabbos [שׁוֹמְרֵי שַׁבָּת; Sabbath observant] folks from Sacramento and sort of push them into the winery. My father did it, a bunch of people did it. I was in Yeshiva High School at the time, but every time I came back I would be, as it were, press-ganged into the winery and so I began as a cellar rat, essentially in a custom-crush type of facility.
The Rav HaMachshir [the Rabbi in charge of the kosher production] was Rav Shlomo Rosen, now in Chicago, but he was a long, long-time Rav of Sacramento. I think it was under the OU [or the OK; I can no longer recall and any records I have are off in storage], although I know I have some old labels, and pictures of old labels. But anyway, he was the actual Rav on the ground and essentially the one making it and it was Pinot Noir [there were actually a couple of different varietal wines and runs over a few vintages; see for example, this 1991 article or this even better 1991 article, both by Dan Berger of the LA Times and this 1992 article by Howard Goldberg of the NYTimes; or this Frank J. Prial 1991 article also in the NY Times].
It was actually fabulous. At one point they did a rosé, a Pinot Noir Blanc, which was also fabulous. Distribution was challenging and eventually, they sold the label to Royal, who then kept the name and the artwork. I think it was Rivkah’s design. I think she actually drew it. They kept a version of the artwork, sold off all the stock, I think through Trader Joe's, for, you know, two bucks. It was like a kosher two-buck chuck regionally, very local, so everyone bought it up, and that was like the wine du jour till it ran out. Then I think it was a year or two of nothing before they moved it to, at the time, Norman's Wines in Australia for, like, kosher bulk Australian wine. I think they still release stuff in that category, maybe even some reserve. I don’t know. I stopped drinking the Australian Teal Lake a long time ago, but the original one was actually very nice. [In fact, the Australian Teal Lake has, over time, developed a decent reputation for affordably priced quality kosher wines. I’ve just not kept apace with these developments, as every time I see the label, I think of the long-gone and long-forgotten CA wine and simply move on.]
So, at any rate, I caught the bug then. Growing up in Northern California, I also got a chance to interact with all the wine personalities that either were in kosher or dabbled or were supportive of kosher [wine]. People like Ernie Weir, Craig Winchell… There was a mainstream winery in Napa [St. Supéry Estate] that was owned by the Jewish Skalli family out of Languedoc [France] and they did a kosher run for a couple of years [1993 through at least 1996; a Chardonnay and a Cabernet Sauvignon] Mount Maroma and Mount Madrona [It was first released as Mount Madrona and then later renamed Mount Maroma] and we used to drink that too.
Simon Jacob: 7:35
I remember seeing bottles of that.
Joshua London: 7:36
It was actually excellent as well, and nothing was that expensive back then. This was also the days when Bob Weinstock, Robert Weinstock, was making Weinstock wines himself before he sold it to Royal, and he was actually making fabulous wines. They used to have this Chenin Blanc. That was really six times better than the price.
Simon Jacob: 8:04
I remember them being super quality at a very reasonable price.
Joshua London: 8:09
Yeah, that's right. And there folks in the industry who, either weren't themselves frum or maybe not even Jewish, but were highly supportive of kosher wine efforts. Dan Berger used to write for the LA Times. He went out of his way to follow the scene and support the quality efforts. The Corti Brothers, which were supportive of kind of ethnic and other more ‘out there’ wines. DarrellCorti had a big influence on a lot of the kosher producers just by being supportive, helping to open doors, helping to make connections. It was a smaller world, less corporate in many, many respects. Some of it still is that way in Napa, but anyhow…
So, I kind of grew up with all that, and it wasn't until a little bit later that I realized just how rich these experiences were, um and uh. And it was many years later that I started writing professionally about it. So I went from California to Israel for a bit and then back to California, then for graduate school, I went to University of Chicago and it was while in grad school that I started writing professionally. Basically, I just sort of realized I had a facility for writing that was… just slightly better than my peers, but [better] enough. And initially, I was doing mostly politics and cultural commentary and that sort of thing, even though I was a kid
But I come from the American Jewish school of thought where, you know, everyone in the world is entitled to my opinion.
I'm tempered a bit now, and even more so by politics. It's a blood sport of a different nature than it was when I was growing up.
So, I became sort of a professional writer as a sideline. I was always doing other stuff, too. Then, I moved to Washington, DC, after graduate school and after I was married... Oh, I married my wife, Anna, in 2002. So it was around 2003 or 2004 that I first started writing about wine, kosher wine, and spirits, and there was a local paper. It became a national paper, but there was a local paper called the Washington Examiner.
And now it became a big chain with Examiners all over the place, and but at the, at that exact moment, it was basically just a local paper and the the wine guy for it, was Jewish, but never wanted to touch anything kosher whatever. I had met him through someone else, and I asked him oh, what are you going to be reviewing for Passover?, As you know, it is the one time of year [that folks write about kosher wine]. And he says “nothing”. And I'm like, oh, that's not good. So I contacted the editor, and I said, look, I nominally know the wine guy. I know he's not going to touch it for Passover. I said you have a sizable Jewish community. Can I write the piece for Passover? “Sure” [was the response], so I did. They loved it. Now, because they had a regular wine writer and—at the end of the day—there wasn't the market for a regular kosher wine column, so I ended up doing a cocktail column.
Cocktails, spirits, and occasionally food all for the weekend section. I ended up with a weekly column where I was doing storytelling about cocktails, the background, the history, different recipes there's a handful of cocktails that have their history in DC, and so I would go to, like, the Army & Navy Club, and the photographer would come and so I was having fun with it. I was a very tiny, very minor… not even a celebrity, but a minor figure in the drinks world in DC. Very tiny, I mean, you know, my stature is almost infinitesimal, but amongst that crowd, they knew me.
Then around the same time [2005], kosherwine.com, which back then was Hungarian Kosher Foods in Chicago. They had just started revamping their website and encouraging people, customers, to submit reviews of the wines, and I, and my friend Gamliel Kronomer, also a wine writer, started just uploading our tasting notes. It was an easy way to keep track of my notes. I'm a bit of an insomniac, so when I would have downtime I would just start uploading these things. All of a sudden, I had something like 500 wines reviewed across the price spectrum, and so suddenly my name was getting around. People all over the place would track me down and email me out of the blue and say are you the same one who does this? What would you recommend?
So, Dan Kirsche, at the time the Kirsche family owned Hungarian Kosher Foods. He ran a kosher wine of the month club through Hungarian, through kosherwines.com, and he had a newsletter, and he needed someone to write the newsletter. And I…here I don't remember the exact history if David Raccah was doing it first or if Raccah took it over from me; I just don't remember. Maybe Raccah knows, but at some point I started writing the newsletter—not under my name, just writing it for them. And for that I needed to research, I needed to know information about the wineries. At this stage of the game, the only way there was any information was whether or not the individual winery doing the kosher run had a marketing department and decided to do anything with it.
Royal [the Royal Wine Corp] wasn't on top of it outside of the Herzog label, maybe a couple of Israeli ones. And I was pushing a lot of stuff that I found interesting and that reached my price point for Kirsche and that he could get enough supply, and through that I became very friendly with the Royal Wine Corp marketing people. At some stage, I moved on. I can't remember exactly why I left the newsletter. It was, I think, partly maybe we were running out of information on the wines. I had sort of tapped the interesting ones, and then Royal didn't have any information and the wineries... This was the early days of the internet. [I recall the pressure of needing to have something genuinely informative to write but having no access to such information, and at some point I had enough of it.]
Simon Jacob: 15:51
The internet was really low.
Joshua London: 15:52
It was low. It just wasn't as user friendly, certainly as now, and everyone's computers were like dial-up or whatever—like everything was slower then. So let's see, this is probably I'm making up the times, but it's something like maybe 2008 or 2009, something along those lines. At some stage, my cocktail column came to an end because the editors changed, the Examiner got bought out, became a much larger national thing, and essentially I was dropped. I and a bunch of other people, in one fell swoop. I started doing some freelance writing. At some stage, I became the weekly columnist for the Washington Jewish Week, a mantle that our friend, you know, Jules Polonetsky? Jules now has that column. He's doing a great job. Jules is an old neighbor of mine from Potomac (Maryland). He's a good friend. That's one of his columns.
Anyway, so I had that column,, and then my friend, Gamliel Kronemer, had a regular gig with The Jewish Week in New York, in the print edition. When they were launching their food and wine website, I started writing heavily for the website. I ended up with a weekly column and periodically also wrote for the print edition. I don't remember the exact year, but at some stage they began an annual wine magazine, a pre-Pesach [Passover holiday] thing, and so I became very involved in that. I became a [wine] judge a little bit later in the process. The whole [wine] competition was basically Yossie Horwitz’s initiative. Either he came up with the idea or he professionalized it for them, or both. I don't remember; he'll tell you. He remembers, but he and the City Winery guy, Steve Dorff [my memory failed, it was Michael Dorf] and folks like that, they began it.
The publisher kept inviting me to join the judging panel, but you know, it just wasn't practical [because of the distance between DC and NYC]. And then by maybe the fourth or fifth year, the publisher said we'll pay for you to come up and stay in a hotel. I said okay, and then I became a judge too.
By the time that, just before COVID rolled around, when we—you and I—finally met in person at that Rothschild dinner in New York, that was probably the height of my very relative name recognition in this niche kosher wine world. And then COVID blew the whole thing up.
Simon Jacob: 18:50
Well, it did in some ways and didn't in others.
Joshua London: 18:55
Right, it evolved.
Simon Jacob: 18:56
It totally evolved.
Joshua London: 18:59
But for me, my column in the Jewish Week…the publication folded. It is sort of back as an online thing, but all different people, and they never did reach out to me. I tried emailing the new crew and never heard anything. So, my regular writing gigs evaporated.
Simon Jacob: 19:21
What about the Jewish Link?
Joshua London: 19:22
So, the moment the Jewish Link started the kosher wine push... Elizabeth Kratz is a longtime friend. I knew her… Actually, I first met her brother, Robert, who sadly passed a few years ago. He was finishing his PhD at the University of Chicago, just as I was entering, and he and his family were friends with my brother who lives in Chicago. Through Robert, I met Elizabeth. She was working on Capitol Hill [in DC] at the time.
I think it was for Congressman [Richard] Pombo, and she had a whole career in politics, and when I reconnected with her in DC, and Gamliel, and a couple of others, I helped sort of cultivate a nice kosher wine scene and, for her in particular, a love of wine.
I won't take credit beyond the spark; all the rest of her wine activities are all her, and her talents—but we used to have some very fun wine tastings, and had a very nice chevra [חברה; group of friends] in DC for this wine shtick. So, I've known Elizabeth a long, long time.
Anyway, when the Jewish Link effectively took over from the Jewish Week, she brought me into the fold. She also always invites me to come up and be a judge. It's just, again, it's just not practical in terms of the distance, but I've been writing for them from day one—just the magazine. I think she's encouraged me to write much more off and on for the paper. I think now she probably has an embarrassment of riches of people who write, which is nice.
So I've reached that stage where my name seems to be recognized by some. By others it's more of a ‘sounds familiar,’ and there's plenty of people who have no idea who I am, which is perfectly fine too.
Simon Jacob: 21:17
So what prompted the move to the UK?
Joshua London: 21:25
So, COVID was an interesting time period in Washington, DC. I was living in Potomac, Maryland, sort of a Washington suburb. Lovely community in a very nice area just outside of DC. Well, when COVID struck, the politics of COVID, particularly in DC, was even more toxic than the coronavirus, and a lot of different people handled it in many different ways. A handful of people remained level-headed and good, and many, many, many panicked, and it brought out, shall we say, their worst traits, including, you know, in some cases, people of either nominal or official leadership capacities.
I kept saying to Anna, my wife, like, look, our jobs are now remote, we can do this from anywhere in the world. Why don't we find some place where (A) there's family a little bit closer, and (B) maybe we can find Jewish schooling [for the kids]? [Schooling that is not online. My son was essentially at the eating crayons stage, so to do that remotely is silly. And at that time, the school, because of the politics of corona, they were effectively talking about if they ever reopen, and then kindergarten would be with six feet apart distancing, then you'd have like a little, not quite a cage, but you know…
Simon Jacob: 22:57
A plexiglass box?
Joshua London: 22:58
Yeah, something like that…it's like I'm not to going to pay, you know, close to $30,000 a head for this. This is ridiculous.
Simon Jacob: 23:05
Right.
Joshua London: 23:05
It wasn't until, I want to say it was maybe Shavuos [שבועות, the Jewish holiday of Shavuot or Weeks; it is one of the the three biblical pilgrimage festivals; that year it coincided with the end of May 2020]. It was the chaggim [חגים or festivals] of like no guests, no shul, no real social interactions, no nothing—that helped convince my wife that we did need to move on. And I think it was post-Shavuos that she finally said, ‘you know what? This is ridiculous.’
Also, we didn't know when we'd ever see my in-laws again. Thank God they're in good health, but they're older. And it just didn't make sense for our kids. It was just—it was too sterile an environment. Finally, we decided to explore the options. We came to England, to London, thinking this would be maybe a six-month experience. Sort of wait out COVID, essentially. Long story shorter, basically, we stayed.
We're still here, and it's been a great move for the family. My kids, who don't really remember America, pine for it just because it's the other.
Professionally, I pretty much shifted gears completely. Until that time, I was a lobbyist for various Jewish groups—pro-Israel lobbying, basically. Once remote work was no longer the method of the day, that became untenable to maintain. I would jump back and forth a little bit, and the January 6th stuff in DC and the politics around that kept the Capitol shut even longer than Corona. So that allowed me to hang on to that job for a bit. But at some stage, you know—it was enough. So I let my boss know I wasn't coming back, and I moved on.
I've sort of been involved a little bit in the local wine market scene with Kedem Europe, which is like the Royal family here [the Herzogs], and a couple of the other companies. It's a much, much, much smaller market, but it's a vibrant community.
Simon Jacob: 25:29
Well, the Kedem team that has the Refined Wine Club in the UK, that club is really incredibly well run. They always have the best product of any club, any wine club anywhere in the world. I'm always super impressed with them.
Joshua London: 26:00
Well, they have a fabulous portfolio. You know they have, bar none, the largest kosher portfolio of any one group, with tremendous variety, some amazing quality. I don't know who invented the club, I don't know which of them came up with it. I believe the club is currently run by Yanki Herzog, the son of Shia or “Morris”—the head of Kedem Europe. His son currently runs it. I don't know if he came up with it or Shia or somebody else, but they run it very, very well.
And because of the challenging three-tier system in America, Kedem Europe have a lot of American members too. I don’t know what the exact arrangement is, but apparently, they have a very large subscription base in America and I guess it's just easier. So, like the Herzog Winery in California has a wine club, but because of the distribution networks it only makes sense for people who are within certain states or whatever, and so the Refined Club is the club du jour. So it is across multiple countries, and they seem to be very good about just giving people variety and quality. It's a good operation.
Simon Jacob: 27:48
Have you ever tasted non-kosher wine?
Joshua London: 27:51
Yes. Some years ago, when I was first sort of becoming professional about it, when I was still in Chicago, I had extensive conversations with a Dayan [rabbinical court judge] there who has since passed away, but from him I got a heater [permission within Jewish law] to taste and spit [that is, to taste but not consume]. The person who gave me the Heter was Rav Gedalia Dov Schwartz, zt”l [the acronym זצ״ל in Hebrew, which stands for זכרונו צדיק לברכה (Zikhrono Tzaddik Livrakha)].
In the early days I did a lot of educational tasting in educational settings. I would go to trade shows and portfolio tastings, and the like—a lot less these days. I feel like at this stage, I have a pretty well-educated palate in many respects. I still sometimes will taste and spit if I think it necessary, but I do so very sparingly.
Simon Jacob: 29:00
I'm curious because that really frames questions that I have for you as far as that's concerned. We've just gone through a number of trade shows, specifically in London: KFWE London and The Kosher Wine Show. Okay, so anything interesting?
Joshua London: 29:24
Lots of great and interesting new stuff. Just to take it first with KFWE, which I think this was like the 19th show, maybe or 20th, something like that. I don't remember off the top of my head. This was the third or fourth one I've been to in London, and it was phenomenal. It was a packed house, I think it was over 1,000 people, but it's hard to tell. It was really, really packed. And so it's all the Kedden portfolio. But they have some astounding wines coming through.
I don't know if you've yet tasted the new [Herzog Wine Cellars] winemaker, David Galzignato. So he's only a couple of years in as head Director of Winemaking and Operations [he started there in 2021]. So, he's new in the sense that I think this is the first iteration of wines where he's been more in control of style, breaking free of the formula wines a bit.
So Joe Hurliman, you know, was an unbelievably talented winemaker and a great guy.
Simon Jacob: 30:28
A super mensch.
Joshua London: 30:30
Yes, a super mensch. [Joe grew very ill and had to retire early, and then passed away just a couple of years later, in 2023; he was only 65 years old.] David had big shoes to fill, and he's filled them well.
Simon Jacob: 30:41
So you're talking about the Yesod?
Joshua London: 30:44
So, actually across the board. So, the Yesod label is like new new, but all of the wines that he makes, which is basically the whole lineup, many of them he's begun to tinker with and make changes, some of them subtle, some of them a little more so, but they're all a step-up in quality, and it is distinct. You can taste them [the improvement].
Two of the wines in particular, not as high as the Yersod price-wise. They have a new Reserve Chenin Blanc. Unbelievable!
David, it seems, had a vision to take the Chenin that they grow there and take it to a different place. So it's still distinctly a New World wine. But he had in mind essentially to go to the Loire, to Savennières, which is a particular region that makes a very particular style of Chenin, and he's basically channeled it in ways that are just astounding. The wine is really good.
I had previously tasted it briefly when Joseph “Motty” Herzog from the winery had come through London, and they did a tasting. So I had sort of tasted all the Yesods already, and this Chenin and the Reserve Pinot Noir, which are also incredibly good, and a handful of others. But to taste them again at KFWE and in some instances, like with the Chenin, they do both the Mevushal and non-Mevushal versions, and I was able to taste them back to back. Just an amazing wine. I think if people give it a chance, they'll fall in love with it. There's a lovely complexity, a weight in the mouth, it’s unbelievably food friendly, and it's just, it's different. It's, again, it's still distinctly California, but very much channeling the soul of the Loire, of Savennières. It's a little bit pricey, but I think it'll probably become my house white.
The Yesods are amazing, but they're so young, I mean, frankly, it'll be several years. Right now, they're just a bit too inky. The Reserve Sonoma Pinot is excellent. Their champagne method bubbly is even better now than the previous vintage. So, like, across the board… Herzog wines. They get better every year, generally, but they're even better now. I think it's a real qualitative step up, and so all those were good.
There was a whole variety of upscale French and mid-level French wines that were excellent. Probably the one that got the most attention is the Philippe Le Hardi line of Burgundies.
Simon Jacob: 34:18
People are hot on Burgundies right now because we haven't... We've been Burgundy, starved for so long.
Joshua London: 34:27
Yes, and now there's an embarrassment of riches. The Le Hardi wines are excellent, really outstanding. They had a Clos De Vougeot, which is super, super expensive but drinking incredibly well now and will get much better. But to me, the Aloxe Corton is exceptional right now. Again, a bit pricey, but if you can afford it, really fab. The base level Burgundy I thought, was excellent for the money. I actually prefer that to the Premier Crew version of it. With a little bit of time in bottle that'll reverse and the Premier Cru will become better. But in terms of drinking right now, the quote-unquote bog standard one fab, really, really good.
[Here my memory, once again, failed — they did not release a kosher “Rouge” but rather the “Philippe Le Hardi Mercurey Les Champs Michaux 2022” is their “cheaper” Burgundy Red in the Le Hardi line (available for $57.99 right now at kosherwine.com or £54.99 at kosherwine.co.uk) with their next level being the “Philippe Le Hardi Mercurey 1er Cru 2022" (available now at $79.99 at kosherwine.com or £64.99 at kosherwine.co.uk), and the prices go higher after that. The substance of my comment — that the relatively cheaper-priced wine is currently drinking better—stands.]
Really exciting Drappier Champagne; they released a vintage champagne. Really, really nice. It's a bit different from—if you're into that Champagne house, which I love.. and Michel [Drappier] is a real Mensch, his son Hugo…it's a really good family. In general, they’ve been going for low-dosage wine—drier, drier, drier. And this, I think it was a 2018 vintage, is a bit higher dosage than we've seen from them of late. So, depending on your palate, it may come across as a little bit sweeter than you've come to expect from them, which some people like. Some people tasted it at KFWE and were like, “sweet!” It's not a sweet wine, but it's a very relative thing.
Simon Jacob: 36:31
I think that it'll actually sell better. To be quite honest, I think there's a group of people who are really adverse to any type of sweetness coming across the palate. But in the general public, I think it will move much better.
Joshua London: 36:50
I tend to agree. It's funny, but... Just as an aside — if I'm boring you, just let me know. But, just as an aside. Right across the wine world, there is a strong bias by aficionado-types—wine mavens against sweetness in wine unless it’s davka—[דוקא; one of those Hebrew/Yiddish/Israeli word that means something like specifically, or precisely, or deliberately, or sometimes also contrarily, depending on context and tone]—a dessert wine, like a Sauternes or whatever.
And it's just not right, and it's not fair. I say not right because—to me—that's not how you [should] approach wine. That's not what it's about. It's about the grapes giving you the best that they can give you. In some cases, you do want to see it across the style range [from sweet to dry]. Riesling! It’s a shame that increasingly nobody wants any sweet Riesling.
I mean, I love dry Riesling. Don't get me wrong, but I also love a sweet Riesling! I love every gradation of Riesling. And Chenin Blanc is the same. I love every gradation. And so, there are some wines where a certain natural sweetness is not just acceptable. It's proper, and to convince people otherwise, that, if they like sweet, that they're unsophisticated. It's just not fair. It has nothing to do with sophistication or lack of sophistication. It's a preference, it's a simple taste preference.
Simon Jacob: 38:40
It's a subjective preference.
Joshua London: 38:42
It's very subjective and not that long ago—in the big scheme of things—even the top wines of the world, even recognized names that are now…nobody would ever think—like Cheval Blanc—nobody would ever think of it as a sweet wine. But not that long ago, high residual sweetness was the height of fashion. And so across Burgundy, Bordeaux, the Rhine, you had, you had many more wines that were—to modern palates and sensibilities—that would be too sweet. These were the wines at the height of fashion! So, like anything, there's the storytelling version of the product, and then there's the actual history. All commercial wines want to appeal to the market, and today the market wants more dry, so they go more dry. So, all of that said, sweetness in wine is part of the human condition. It's right and proper at times.
Simon Jacob: 39:53
I always wonder whether the squeaky wheels within the wine industry who have the ear of the wineries, are the people who are saying, you know, oh, I don't want any sweetness, or I want a lot of acidity, and the trouble is then the market is really not attuned to that. You know, I kind of wonder with consumers. A little bit of residual sweetness goes a long way to convince people that wine is something that's reasonable for them. Where I'm hearing like a lot of people will say to me oh, I don't drink wine, I don't drink wine. I’ll have a cocktail but I don't drink wine. And it's totally because of this, because I think of wine as being some acidy, non-sweet…
Joshua London: 41:04
Well, I think it's a mix. Some of it is because the wines that they're told they're supposed to love they don't love. It doesn't fit their flavor profile. And I think a lot of it, also, is the sense that to be into wine requires sort of an intellectual commitment. At the end of the day, it’s a beverage, you know, like Coke.
Simon Jacob: 41:34
A hundred percent.
Joshua London: 41:35
Particularly wine professionals lose sight of this all the time. I'm not blaming anyone. You know, a wine geek shouldn't feel bad about being a wine geek either.
Simon Jacob: 41:51
A hundred percent.
Joshua London: 41:56
But the pretentiousness factor keeps a lot of people away. It's across the wine world. In the frum world, uh, perhaps even more so. There's plenty of people when they're done for the day—either with their professional jobs or yeshiva, or whatever—they don't now need and they don't want another graduate-level course just to be able to have wine with their meal.
Now whisky...in fact, all the spirits, are so much more approachable in that sense because you don't have to commit to any extra knowledge. I've tried to explain this to people in slightly different contexts, mostly my wine geek friends, when they say, oh, it's very approachable. So to a non-wine person, they'll look at you funny, like, what does that mean?
Simon Jacob: 42:44
What does that mean? It's a liquid. You drink it. What do you mean? It's got to melt? Like, what are we talking about?
Joshua London: 42:50
Right! What does that mean?! Approachable? You pour it, you drink it. Sometimes, wine geeks, when you ask them about it, they kind of go into this reverie, and all the opaque nomenclature pops up, and it comes out as gobbledygook to the uninitiated. And I always try to explain to them: Look! The uninitiated? That's the market! You want to sell, not to wine geeks, you want to sell to people, normal human beings. Wine it's just like food. Because it is food, it's supposed to be part of everyday life.
To me, a successful wine, when I say it's approachable, it means you don't have to have ever tasted anything like it before to enjoy it. Also, it doesn't have to age for 20 years in a cellar before it's just coming into it. It's a good wine if it fits all the different categories. It's refreshing, the alcohol is just enough to make you happy, but not enough to where it's burning or it feels hot. It should not be a remarkable component.
Ultimately, you want a wine in which no one element is remarkable. You just want it to be where you go, ooh, that's nice or yummy or whatever. That's really what you want in a wine.
The wine geeks—like me, I'm a confessed wine geek of the highest order. I'll sit there and ooh and ah for 20 minutes over this element or that, but I'm not going to bore anyone else with it, unless they're into it. For anyone else, I'll just say, oh, it's really nice. So an approachable wine means it's good to drink right now. Pop and pour. If it's not pop and pour, then it's not yet approachable. It's as simple as that.
And so the one thing about the KFWE style tastings and again, this is as true in the treif market... [Treif or טְרֵף is a Yiddish word that means non-kosher, i.e., not fit for Jewish consumption according to halacha (Jewish law). It comes from the Hebrew word טָרֵף (taref), meaning “torn” and is rooted in a specific Jewish textual context, but in popular usage, treif has come to mean any food that’s not kosher.]
Simon Jacob: 44:47
I was going to ask you if there's a difference. Is there a notable difference between the kosher market and the treif market? With a return to how they're approached, but also consumer behavior price points, trends…?
Joshua London: 45:00
Yeah, there's a whole variety of differences. So, just to finish the thread of the KFWE-style tastings, the three things I find annoying about tasting in that context is many wines, particularly as you go higher up the quality spectrum, they're released to market early because they need a return on the investment. But the wines in many respects do need time in bottle before they're really ready to drink.
So, that style of tasting traditionally is a trade tasting, not a public tasting, because the trade understands that, oh right, we lay down stocks of this and in four years time you know we'll sell that, or whatever, two years depends on exactly what you're tasting. But there'll be some wines that you bring to market and instantly move off the shelf and others that are really for the people who are building their cellars out and need a little bit more of this or that region. And it's the understanding that, oh, lay it down for three years, two years, five years, ten years, because right now it's not pleasurable.
When punters, you know, when consumers come in, they're expecting, I think quite rightly from their vantage point—they just spent X amount, 100 dollars, 100 pounds, whatever; I want to taste the best of what you got right now.
And usually they're very disappointed because the most expensive wines aren't ready to drink right now, even though it's being offered right now on the table. Thats A. Now B, at home, people will be drinking it with food and friends, as part of a meal.
All good wine fits into a meal. It's part of cuisine at table, it's part of everyday life. And to just taste, you know, walk around and go oh, we get a taste of that. It's [like] ink! It needs more time. It's not yet totally together, and so even if a consumer can instantly recognize, oh, it's a, it's a quality wine, and appreciate all the different elements…But at the end of the day, it's not ready to drink now. So, it's still an unsatisfying experience for a lot of people.
In the kosher market it's a little bit worse only because, depending on the level of frumkite [religiosity] a lot of people are coming in and they're thinking kiddush. You know, can I glug back four ounces in one sitting of this? Will this give me pleasure when I consume Arba Koyses [ארבע כוסות or drinking the four cups of wine, a central commandment of the Passover Seder] and I'm just downing it out of a silver becher [בכר is Yiddish for wine goblet], or, if they are upscale, use a glass becher.
Well, a lot of wines don't work at that level. You know, try chugging a Coke, a whole can of Coke in 30 seconds. It's not so pleasurable either. There are wines that do that, and that do it very well, but it's just that it's a slightly different context.
And it's one of the things about the kosher market that people outside the kosher market don't get professionally, and I think people within the market sometimes lose sight of, and consumers often feel…
Kosher consumers often feel like they're being… cheated is a little bit strong, but feel like it's at their expense. They sort of recognize that they are a captive audience. Right, they need kosher, they can't drink not kosher. So there's always a sense. Same in [kosher] restaurants, where people are like, well, there's no competition. That's why we're stuck with this. That's why the pricing is this…
There are a lot of silly notions that people have in their heads about what things ought to cost. At the end. With the pricing, you know they're trying to figure out A how to make a profit, but B how to not lose their shirt.
So you know there's a little bit of guesswork but at the end of the day it's all still market forces. That part's no different. That part's no different. More competition would help improve the dynamics of the price structure, but the basic dynamic is the same. But so a lot of people come in and think, oh, I'm stuck, you know, having to pay four times the price of the non kosher version of this wine. And it's just because I'm trapped, because I keep kosher, and I'm like, no. In most instances. The markup is a reasonable, maybe, 40 percent, because it costs more to do. It costs more for the winery to do—a lot more in some instances it's just…
As a quick aside, we mentioned earlier, Drappier champagne. I had a nice conversation again with Michelle, for an article I was doing on on champagne [see here for the published version, or here for my longer Substack version].
So I asked them, what are some of the technical differences [between kosher and non-kosher in terms of their production process]? Because they've been doing it now for however long... a decade plus? 20 years? Something like…they've been doing it a long time already and it's a regular thing. So I asked, how much kosher do you produce relative to your non-kosher?
So, he says it's different every year, depending on quality, depending on the market. At any given vintage, they could be doing zero kosher bottles to up to 30,000.
Simon Jacob: 50:55
How is 30,000 compared to the rest of what they make, though?
Joshua London: 50:59
So that's what I asked him. So, he said on average they're non-kosher, they do 1.5 million bottles.
Simon Jacob: 51:08
Wow.
Joshua London: 51:09
So, all the economy of scale is lost, all the efficiency is lost. So a winery that normally produces 1.5 million, the exact same infrastructure, has to separately—fully separate or independent is now doing a tiny run of 30,000. So you can imagine what the costs are, and for a quality producer they demand that the mashgichim [מַשְׁגִּיחִים; kashrut supervisors] have to be on hand, ideally as readily available as they're non-kosher runs. There's only so many people doing it [working as mashgichim], so there's always, well, not always… There is usually some time delay, some lag between the kosher and non-kosher process. You have to balance it out and factor in the delays between the kosher run and non-kosher run.
If you're, say, in Champagne and the guy's coming up from, I don't know, Strasbourg or Lyon or wherever, you got to wait for him to show up before you can pull the sample, before you can adjust this, before you can adjust that. If you've ever driven around France, you know, you get stuck in traffic and that's another delay. So people have to factor these delays and costs into the production.
It's one of those areas where an all-kosher winery has it all over a non-kosher winery in terms of the process, the efficiency, and scale.
The downside is that the established non-kosher estate often has the best or best-explored terroir. It’s a multi-generational, established, but it’s not kosher, it means not Jewish, it means, so often the non-kosher wineries have better fruit at their disposal, but it's offset by the fact that the economics of it are upside down.
Whereas an all-kosher place, the economics of the production are in line with the industry. But if they're an estate winery, it's just what [vineyards] they own, and if they're not estate or if they also buy [grapes], they are limited to what is available, what they can afford to get, and what they're able to get—even in Israel. You know it's not unusual, if you're not an estate winery, for your long-term contracts to be underwhelming. Where the grower goes, despite long-term contracts, may anyway cut a deal with somebody else for cash or a better price. They'll tell you, ‘oh, yields were low this year, and you should pay more because it’s concentrated and better quality due to the low yeilds.’
Simon Jacob: 53:56
Yeah.
Joshua London: 53:57
It is what it is. Everyone's trying to make a living, but anyway… So, in the kosher market. So there's all those aspects to it and consumer behavior is different. Now, the other thing about the kosher market, at the end of the day, you need wine, halakhically, wine meaning grape juice too, but something that is yayin [יַיִן is Hebrew for wine].
They need yayin, they need it every single week—at a minimum. They need it for kiddush and havdallah. So for some, grape juice is fine, either because they like the taste. They don't want the alcohol, for health reasons, for lifestyle reasons. You know, young kids, whatever it is—although I give my young kids wine, but whatever.
But Jews need the product. I've often said, at the end of the day, in the mainstream world, wine is a luxury item. In the Jewish world, wine is a necessity. Good wine is a luxury item, and it makes a big difference.
So it means that you know if somebody is budget constrained, and most Jews are—lots of, God willing, many, many children, and that costs money to raise and educate and so on. All the different competing elements of a family budget, all the elements that control the budget, the husband, wife and anything else, unless they're on the same page, uh, and or the disposable income allows whoever's making the purchases to quietly bump it up anyway. But otherwise, you know, it has to be sort of a family decision that we're going to drink at this level, not that level.
So, there's plenty of people who, as much as they would love to drink a few hundred-dollar bottles of wine on a Shabbos, that's just not an option, it's just not realistic. And so everyone is always looking for the cheapest possible wine that they'll enjoy. So, depending on their palates, that means that they have to spend over, say, I don't know, 20 bucks, 25 bucks just to get something that they can drink.
You know, in the treif world, there used to be $2 Chuck, but it was not that all wines that were competitive at that price level were any good. $2 Chuck was considered just drinkable enough. Kosher, there's no such thing as a $2 Chuck. The closest thing would be $5. There's not a lot of that at that price point either. But Trader Joe's in America you can start to get for under $10, you can find things.
Most kosher wines under $10 are at the quality level of the competitors of two-buck Chuck, so not very good. There are some exceptions. But, so, when you're at that price point… to drink a cabernet that retails in the kosher market for 9.99, may or may not give you the same pleasure as Bartenura Moscato. You know which, depending on your exact market. You're either getting discounted at $10 or you're spending maybe $14.
Again, it depends on the exact market. So you're comparing something that you can absolutely drink—not remarkable, necessarily depending on your taste preferences—but everyone will [drink it]. It's not like Manischewitz wine, they'll get something out of it. Versus a dry red that, at that quality level, maybe isn't really what you want. So the price sensitivity is high, and it leads to big gaps between people who aren't willing to spend more than their usual budget because it's unfamiliar territory. If they're buying wines at that [low] price point, it's usually for a reason. Convincing the average drinker to spend more than twenty dollars or twenty quid in Britain is a huge jump, right? Most of the wine that gets sold is at the cheaper end.
Twenty is considered sort of premium, right, and certainly in the UK, but even in America. Mainstream 20-25 is the first jump to premium. In the kosher market, however, that's like…nobody thinks of it as premium because you think, ‘oh, that's where it becomes drinkable’. Again, partly it's just because kosher costs a little bit more to produce.
Now, all Israeli wines have to be exported out of Israel, brought into America. There's costs involved in that. So, all Israeli wines are that much more expensive in America or in the UK, often just removing whatever competitive advantage in terms of price structure domestically in Israel. That evaporates because import-export it's just… there are more costs involved. It cuts into the margins of how people think of these wines.
The mevushal aspect also changes, particularly for Israeli production. In some instances, the stuff that they make mevushal for export is a little bit different, a little less good, because they're a little bit further removed from the chain of customers being able to relate back that this didn't taste right or this wasn't good. So, sometimes the mevushal quality coming out of some of the larger wineries in Israel isn't quite as good as the same version that you can get locally.
Simon Jacob: 1:00:24
You mentioned, though, that some of the French ones have a mevushal and a non-mevushal, and you've tasted those. What do they taste like? Whats the difference? Is there a difference?
Joshua London: 1:00:33
So, it varies a little bit. Some of them, some of the wineries have uh…so I've come to understand this is a technical issue but, many of these wineries, it's small production, they uh… so that even even within their own…
OK, so, thermal processing of wine is a longstanding thing. Almost all commercial wineries of any proper size have had experience with it. Not mevushal temperatures right, that's a whole other kettle of fish, but just the idea of using heat in judicious, technical ways to deal with a difficult vintage. Not all of them are familiar, but many, many, many are familiar. They all kind of hate the idea just because it's, you know, heat. It's not what they're... It certainly doesn't keep with the narrative they tell customers, but they're familiar with it. Now, to do it at a scale and with the rigorous protocol involved in kosher production is kind of a different order.
For some wineries, you can't get the equipment easily. Sometimes you can't even get it to the facility easily. In some cases, you have to truck the liquid just a little bit. You know, it just depends on where things are set up. When the mashgiach [מַשְׁגִּיחַ; kashrut supervisor] is being mevashel [מְבַשֵּׁל; present tense, masculine singular form of the verb לְבַשֵּׁל (Levashel), meaning to cook or to prepare by heating], the wines, a heavier touch versus a lighter touch, matters. So that even though there's a particular temperature you need to reach to maintain halachic requirements, it doesn't mean that you're not getting well over that at times because…oops! Obviously, no one's going to share that with anybody. You know the, the I mean the people producing it know what's going on, but they're not going to share that with customers and say, oh well, the first 20,000 liters went about 10 degrees hotter than we wanted. So there's some things, it just is what it is, and they have to make the best of it, and so they'll try to blend it out.
So some wineries, their mevushal versions really aren't the same quality level. In some cases, they will eventually work it out and get it right. Like the first time that Capcanes in Spain did some mevushal wines, I think virtually everyone agreed they weren't as good. There was a real qualitative difference. You can taste them back to back and it was like something in the wine had changed and not for the good. And that's a learning curve. You know a couple of vintages in. They usually get it.
So there's that aspect to it, it's all very technical from a consumer perspective. At the end of the day, all you know is you drink it and it tastes good or it doesn't taste good. It tastes like you expect, or it doesn't taste like you expect.
Simon Jacob: 1:03:43
I have a question. You are kind of at the social point of global markets between having France and having the US and having Israel and some of the other outlying producers. Is there currently a leader in the kosher wine industry? You know, is it Israel, is it the US, is it Europe, is it another region?
Joshua London: 1:04:10
It's a good question, so it depends a little bit on what the focal point is. So, in terms of sheer numbers, the largest number of all kosher wineries is Eretz Yisrael, which, frankly, I find appropriate. I think that's the way it should be.
As a quick aside, when the late Daniel Rogov, in one of the iterations of his book on Kosher Wines—his first one, that was just kosher wines, not Israeli wines. I wrote a review for the LA Jewish Journal in which I was a bit critical, I mean, you know, he's a good guy, it's a good book. But I said, the percentage of Israeli wines isn't as high as it ought to be for the market in a book that's about global kosher wine, and there's many more kosher wines from Israel than were reflected in the book. And he said, well, I already have a book on Israeli wines. And I said, but you're missing the point. To a kosher consumer, they want to know about kosher wines as a whole, and so it should be better represented. So that is, just as a quick side note, one of the things that I feel very strongly.
I think a lot of people don't grasp about kosher wine. A lot of Jews don't grasp. You know, we speak of kosher wine in terms of kasherus because within the trade it's, you know, kashrus supervisors who are doing it, who are involved in it. Logically, you know it's Ma'achalos Assuros [מַאֲכָלוֹת אֲסוּרוֹת; prohibited foods]. So we think in terms of normal kashrus and it is conceptually at that level, at the technical level, but really it's not about kashrus in the way that ingredients in this or that processed food are kosher. It's not quite the same. It's much more of a natural product. Yes, you have to make sure any additives are strictly kosher, or if you are using commercial yeasts, etc. There's a handful of things, but ultimately it's an agricultural product.
Really, though, the difference between kosher wine and stam yeinam [סְתָם יֵינָם], or general wine, non-kosher wine, isn't really kashrus, it's really Yiddishkeit [ייִדישקײַט; Yiddish word for Jewishness; refers to Jewish culture, identity, and traditional way of life]. It's Jewish identity.
What is kosher wine? It's Jewish wine. Historically, what was the reason for, you know, the g’zera [גְּזֵירָה; Rabbinic edict] of Stam Yeinom? It's not Yayin Nesach [יַיִן נֶסֶךְ; wine libation in the service of idolatry], that's distinct. Hashem [הַשֵּׁם; ‘The Name’ a euphemism for God] doesn't want us to have wine that's been used for Avodah Zarah [עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה; idolatry and foreign worship]. That's its own isser [אִיסּוּר; prohibition], it's an isser d’oraisa [דְּאוֹרַיְיתָא; from the Torah].
The reason why stam yenam, wine about which we don't know if it was used for nesach, why it's forbidden, is because of chasunos [חֲתוּנוֹת; marriages, a rabbinic short-hand for the concern for intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews]. They don't want, the sages didn't want, Jews in that social situation with non-Jews. It's about separation, it's us and them. So, kosher wine is really Jewish wine. That's the distinction.
Now, we live in an age in which most Jews aren't Shomer Shabbos [שׁוֹמֵר שַׁבָּת; Sabbath observant], they're not Shomer Mitzvos [שׁוֹמֵר מִצְוֹת; observant of the commandments] in the way that used to be. Certainly in the biblical period, but certainly also in the Talmudic period. You were either Jewish, which meant you were of the community, regardless of your exact level of religiosity. You were Jewish. There was only one definition. It was before there were the different denominations. So it was about identity. Jewish, not Jewish. And to be a Jew who's outside the Jewish community was a whole different thing. So wine was Jewish wine.
So it's different from shchita, or from modern food processing. So you know, in an era now where many jews can't make jewish wine in a halachic sense. Right, they need, they need to hire workers who are shomer shabbos. But before, the kashrus industry had certifications—for which you rightly need to pay, because it's a job, someone has to do it. How do you know something was kosher? Because you know Yossele the butcher, he lives there, he's part of the community. He's kosher, the meat's kosher, because he's a trustworthy yid [ייִד; Yiddish word for Jew]. How do you know you this wine was kosher? Because he's in the community. It's Jewish wine, he's making Jewish wine.
So before kashrus became an industry, and again, this is all a proper natural evolution. It's a progression and it is right and proper. I know people complain all the time about it. It's a job and it's a difficult job. Dealing with Yidden [ייִדן; Yiddish word for Jews] is always a difficult job.
So kosher wine is really much more about the identity of Jewish wine. And it's just, as a technical matter, l'halacha, that means Shomer Shabbos, that means you know folks of the community, and then there's a politics. Haimish [הײַמיש; Yiddish term homey, comfortable and familiar which has become short-hand for חַרֵדִי (chareidi) or ultra-Orthodox] versus this versus that, etc. But, so, Israel, by rights, should all be Jewish wine.
I mean all the Israeli wine, right, I mean again Palestinian wine, if you're there, whatever. But commercially it's all Jewish wine. It's not all kosher because of the technicalities of what constitutes kosher certification and I understand many Israelis… This isn't what they want to hear, and it's not their approach. Conceptually, that's fine; no one has to agree with me. I'm just saying, historically, that's what kosher wine is.
So it therefore becomes a bit weird at times when the best kosher wines are coming from non-Jewish wineries. It's the nature of the market that somebody swooped in and convinced them to do Jewish wine. But you know a ninth generation French winemaker who historically, if they had any interaction with Jews before the modern era was not positive. Or more contemporary, either during the war or post-war…maybe. It's very positive, but yeah, historically probably wasn't great.
So on the one hand, it's a Kiddush Hashem [קִדּוּשׁ הַשֵּׁם; sanctification of God’s name] that now you can go and get the highest levels of kashrus from people who don't know from Jews otherwise. And in many respects, that's a Kiddush Hashem, and it's a wonderful thing. You're being m’kadesh, something, you're bringing it into the fold.
On the other hand, it's not Jewish wine. You're creating Jewish wine in a totally non-Jewish environment, and there's a cost. There's a greater cost…
So, in terms of leadership in the wine world, so it depends on sort of what you're looking for.
As I say, the most number of kosher wineries is in Israel, which I think is appropriate, and so there's a leadership sense of when Israel is exploring new varieties. That's, I think, exciting. You know the indigenous varieties. Not that all are equally good, but it's an exciting development. Certainly, at the wine geek level, even non-Jews get very excited about indigenous varieties in israel or cyprus or greece, or because it's different from cabernet and merlot, and as much as they love all wine, when it's different and it's a foreign sounding grape to them, that's just exciting. Full stop.
Whether it's any good is the next step; is the next question. So that's an exciting development. Wine geeks who are more academic are especially excited by some of the archaeological wine research about how Vitis Vinifera came onto the scene. It turns out, as you know, the Levant is also not the starting point, not just Georgia… Depending on one's level of geekery. This is brilliant stuff. There's all that.
There's lots of unbelievable talent in Israel, but what Israel lacks is, as you know better than I even, I'm sure, is the traditions. Because outside of a couple of families before Medinat Yisrael, there was no wine in any traditional sense. It's not like in France, where there's nine generations, you know, cultivating the exact same grape and the exact same plot, and so they, you know. It's not like that.
Simon Jacob: 1:13:51
It's a little different, though. Wait, I want to correct you. It's not like there wasn't. 2,000 years ago there were gats [wine presses] all over the place, you almost can't throw a stone in the Judean hills without hitting a gat [Simon is speaking of archaeological finds]. But there haven't been Jews here. There's a big space where we were pulled out.
Joshua London: 1:14:16
Right, but galus [גָּלוּת; exile] brought to an end a terrific amount of the continuity of Jewish life, that's the nature of it. So that's what I mean by tradition. Recent tradition, where you've got a grandfather and a great-grandfather, and what have you, in the wine trade.
Simon Jacob: 1:14:37
I mean the Herzogs have this living tradition that's like 12 generations and it's amazing. I mean it's very rare, but they do. I mean we've got some families here that are, you know, two and three generations into it in Israel, but it's not like we've been living on the same land with the same vines for the last you know, 900 years.
Joshua London: 1:15:09
Yeah. Now, all of that said, there's also. This is where the sort of the, the stories wine people like to tell themselves. There's a disjuncture, right. A lot of the great wines of the world, went through terrifically long periods of mediocrity. In some cases, unbelievable mediocrity, and even unbelievable vineyards—Château Haut-Brion, right? Samuel Pepys mentions it in his diary in the 1600s. So, for sure, that plot of earth has always been special. But the wines coming from that plot of earth have not always been correct.
Because until the modern era, in which wineries were estate bottled, it was négoçants buying barrels and bottling it themselves, and often they were doctoring it. Because it was unregulated, they did what they wanted. So in France, famously, there's lots of these stories of fraud—legal and illegal, because, again, it was pre-regulation in some respects, certainly before the AOCs. That's why a lot of this stuff came about was to protect these things.
Also, the science of wine pre-Louis Pasteur and post-Louis Pasteur is, you know, like a Copernican revolution. And since Pasteur, the science and understanding is just leaps and bounds ahead. So…in that you can now make technically brilliant wine virtually anywhere in the world.
So, yes, it may be a place that didn't know viticulture until, you know, yesterday, so to speak, in relative terms. Like Japan, pre-1950s, I don't think there was a lot of wine, but they're exploring and doing interesting things. In China, there's plenty of places that don't have a natural long history of grape wine but can do excellent things. So does it mean that, therefore, a wine that in historical terms was created yesterday versus the 12th generation, or whatever? Does it mean that they're qualitatively better, worse?
That's a.. it's a subjective judgment, but in many respects, no. The person who has been farming the same plot of land for generations. They make better wine now than they ever made before, because the people doing it now are educated in scientific terms.
So Israel has an edge that way where, on the one hand, yeah, there's a break in the continuity of tradition, and so a lot of indigenous [grape] varieties and all that kind of stuff is gone. We don't really know what styles [of wine] and whatever, but ancient wine tended to be, by contemporary standards, dreck.
Too sweet, poorly made, doctored with honey, resin, and all that stuff they would use to doctor it to make it drinkable. So, a different kettle of fish.
I think there's a degree to which it's an unnecessary story, but it's a trapping because the wine world, the mainstream wine world, likes to tell these multi-generational stories. So again, in terms of leadership. So Israel, I think, is where some of the most exciting stuff is happening b'chlal [בִּכְלַל; in general].
The Herzog family, we mentioned it a few times. It's not appreciated by some because it's commercial, people are always complaining about pricing and whatever… The Herzog family has done more than any other commercial enterprise, commercial group to push the quality of kosher wines in the right direction. They're doing it for commercial reasons, right and proper. Hands down, but for them, the industry would be nowhere near as advanced as it is. They're not the only ones, but they're by far the market leaders in this, and so it's leaps and bounds. We would be so far removed from quality wines. But for them, and even the people who, independent of them, are pioneers the Ernie Weirs, people who are really unbelievable vignerons… If the wine is excellent but nobody can get it, the impact will be minimal.
Distribution is an important part of all this.
Again, in storied parts of France… people don't like to think of the commerce side of it. Why did one region do better than another? Because the trade route, or the train, or things that allowed them to get to market. So if the greatest product in the world doesn't have an audience, for distribution reasons, the actual impact on the market will be next to nothing. That can be a tremendous drawback.
Right now, in terms of sheer quality, probably the absolute top of the [kosher] market, I think, is Domaine de Montille. Etienne de Montille and his wines, exceptional; the terroir he's working with, unbelievable. The market, you know, the distribution of the wines is pretty minimal. The market exposure is pretty minimal…But there's this terrific importer in Israel. They're just kind of reconfiguring their setup in America. Honest Grapes (you've had Nathan Hill on).
Simon Jacob: 1:21:27
Nathan's amazing.
Joshua London: 1:21:29
And Nathan, he and his partners, it was their pet project to get the thing going. I think de Montille came to him, but they're the ones who made it. They already had a longstanding relationship with the de Montille.
I've had long conversations now with the de Montille. He’s said that, over the years he was approached about kosher and his Israeli importer of his non-kosher told him ‘don't do it, it'll ruin the brand.’ And 20 years later it's a different story and so he's finally dipped his toes, and it's just unbelievable quality and complexity and just amazing wines.
His approach to how he wants, how he insists on doing his kosher, is the right approach [for a non-kosher winery]. But it's expensive. But that's, you know, like, if you can't have the mashgiach exactly when you need them, you know, excepting only Shabbos and Yom Tov, otherwise you're not doing it right. I'm not waiting a week for the guy to show up. Like, that's not going to happen. That's the correct approach. You pay for that privilege.
So again, if the wines don't succeed commercially, de Montille will stop doing them and the impact on the market will be minimal. So there's success. There's many ways to chalk it up.
Simon Jacob: 1:22:50
The market controls it, but the talent.
Joshua London: 1:22:51
Yeah, we've never had such great talent in the modern era. The guys in Israel, across the board, some amazing stuff. Ernie Weir, Jeff Morgan, Jonathan Haydu, David Galzignato and the whole Herzog operation in California and then what they're doing. Also, Menachem Israelievitch in Royal Wines Europe, Pierre [Miodownik], you know, I think, still does a couple of French wines.
Simon Jacob: 1:23:20
He does, he does a bunch actually, he actually got back into it, bringing wines to Israel during the Shemitah [שְׁמִיטָה] year. He made some interesting wines in France and brought them back to Israel so that they were non-Shemitah. Are there any Israeli wines that really stand out in your mind?
Joshua London: 1:23:42
So, I find across the board the Recanati wines. I think I've always liked Recanati from Louis Pasco's days forward, but I feel like they get better all the time. And they were great to begin with and they get better all the time.
Simon Jacob: 1:23:58
By the way, there's a new Odem it's called Odom Merlot from Recanati. It's from their Odom vineyard and it's awesome and it's a Merlot and it's just an awesome wine. So I'm just telling you it's an interesting product.
Joshua London: 1:24:21
There's some people who are doing amazing things. So, Dalton I've always been a fan of Dalton [Winery], I think they do. I mean, A, Kol Hakavod [כָּל הַכָּבוֹד; respect!], they are pioneers. They helped dramatically transform the region in terms of tourism and wine. They're true trailblazers. As it happens, they've had a terrible war—no one has a good war, but they've had a terrible war. But they, I think they have some amazing wines. The Asufa series, which is the play thing [of winemaker] Guy [Eshel]…I love it.
Simon Jacob: 1:24:59
It's so much fun. There's some of us— in the us I'm including myself, with some stellar people—but there are a number of people who have like put themselves in a box that they almost don't like anything except this specific product.
I've tried to keep my mind a little bit more open, and I try to taste things. I don't always love some of them, but I can see how the market would react positively towards it and how it could be an entry drug to the wine industry. Where to expect somebody who's going to pick up a bottle of [Château] Smith Haut Lafitte that's 2020, and you're selling it at whatever price, and these people pick it up and they taste it and they go. Oh, you know what wine's not for me. I'm going to go back to cocktails.
Joshua London: 1:26:07
So it goes back to the premiumization, price categories. You know, as Louis Pasco once told me for an article I did, he said at the end of the day, like you know, very few people go into wine to be rich. That's not why they went into it. And he's 100% correct. And you know, it doesn't mean that there aren't rich people who get into wine and it doesn't mean there aren't people who got rich through wine. But that's not the norm
Simon Jacob: 1:26:36
It's not the wine that did it...
Joshua London: 1:26:40
That's right. So again, for Smith Haut Lafitte or some of these, these are, in relative terms, the playthings of the rich. Bordeaux has always had this. Burgundy? That's more recent, but it certainly has it now. It's important to ensure that you have correct, or ‘correct’ is the wrong phrase, that you have adjusted expectations for human nature.
In theory, it'd be great for every wine lover to be enamored with Smith Haut Lafitte. I'm sure Smith Haut Lafitte would love it if every wine sold out in seconds, but that's not practical. Four Gates everything sells out more or less in an hour, but there's not much of it.
Simon Jacob: 1:27:34
It's not for all days.
Joshua London: 1:27:40
Some of the larger wineries, particularly some of the middling price points, get a bad rap. Because if you're a Smith Haut Lafitte drinker and that's your budget, those are the types of wines you drink. A Barkan Classic is not going to rock your world. It's just not going to work for you. That doesn't mean that it's not a good wine. It's not being made for you in that sense.
Simon Jacob: 1:28:06
Yeah, 100%.
Joshua London: 1:28:07
Right, and so there has to be an adjustment to how people speak about this. The wine world is co-opted… The wine literature, shall we say, the wine buzz, is co-opted by the people who have the time and interest, people like me, although hopefully I'm a force for good to the degree that I have any impact at all—just tiny, tiny, tiny.
But I'm bored, senseless, when people only want to discuss sort of the super expensive snob appeal things, even though if I have the budget, those are my wines.
Simon Jacob: 1:28:53
You're an honest man, you're an honest man.
Joshua London: 1:28:57
But the reality is… It's good but you know, if I'm trying to convince people to incorporate wine into their lives, what kind of a schmuck would I be if I say here's a wine you'll never afford, you'll never otherwise have, but taste it, you'll love it. Great, now, everything doesn't taste great. Why would I do that? Why would I take away someone's pleasure? I think it's a silly thing to do.
And there is a good chance the trophy wine, the playthings of the middle class and upper class, aren't going to rock the world of the people. You know, just because it's too different.
Joshua London: 1:29:41
If you're a fast food burger kind of guy, you know the very delicate entrecote steak probably isn't as satisfying. If you had it once a week, you'll develop a taste for it and suddenly you'll, like everyone else, go ‘oh, they don't cook it as well as these guys.’
But if you're a fast food kind of eater, which just by the economics a lot of people are, you have to actively develop a taste for things that are outside of that.
Simon Jacob: 1:30:13
So, thank you. Thank you for being on The Kosher Terroir and I look forward to talking to you again very soon.
Joshua London: 1:30:18
Thank, you for having me. This was my great pleasure and I hope this will be even remotely satisfying to other people, but I had a great time.
Simon Jacob: 1:30:26
I think it will be. It's fun. If you have fun, it communicates.
This is Simon Jacob, again your host of today's episode of The Kosher Terroir.
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About Me:
For more than two decades, I’ve been drinking, writing about, consulting on, and speaking professionally about kosher wines and spirits. For over twelve years, I penned a weekly column on kosher wines and spirits that ran in multiple Jewish publications, and my writing continues to appear in a broad range of Jewish and mainstream media, both in print and online.
In addition to writing, I frequently speak publicly, leading tutored tastings and hosting educational programs on kosher wine and spirits appreciation for audiences of all kinds. If you’re interested in commissioning articles, arranging tastings, booking events, or just wanting to connect, feel free to reach out at joshlondon246@gmail.com.
In what now feels like another lifetime, I also authored Victory in Tripoli: How America’s War with the Barbary Pirates Established the U.S. Navy and Shaped a Nation (John Wiley & Sons, 2005), a slice of early American history.
When not immersed in wines and spirits, I work in the charity and non-profit sector. I currently serve as Development Director for Yad Vashem UK Foundation. Previously a longtime Washington, D.C.–based lobbyist and pro-Israel advocate, I relocated to the U.K. with my family during the COVID era—and happily prefer life across the pond, despite the truly lamentable and frankly uncivilized shortage of kosher Beaujolais here. That said, I still make it back to the States from time to time.